In the “conversation” that follows, the
represents the Russellite’s arguments (which are exactly the same
arguments that any Protestant would support) and in
are the arguments of our O.O.D.E. colleague. Certain
intense expressions by both persons are justified, given the immediacy
of the conversation in the forum. We are certain that neither of the
two intended to “offend” the other; this was merely “rhetorical
We are publicizing this conversation, in response to
those who falsely accuse the Church of deifying the Most Holy
When the “priests” and the “cantors” blare out the words
of the orthodox “psalm” : “MOST HOLY THEOTOKOS, SAVE US”, you and your
“dogmatic research team” come along and try to convince us that
“we never deified the Holy Mother”
“there was never any notion of a divine-human embryo”.
Hey Nick, please, we aren’t brainless, we’re intelligent beings and we
can’t help reacting to foolery.
1. If, as you say,
«We never deified the Holy Mother»,
then why do you ask her in your “psalm” to save you?
When the Bible clearly and simply says about Jesus Christ that: “salvation
is not possible through anyone else, for there is no other name under
the heavens that is given to mankind, through which we must be saved”?
If you are annoyed by the words of Orthodox psalms that
the Holy Mother “saves”, you must also be annoyed at the words of the
Apostle Paul, who also “saves”. Check for example verse 14 in Romans
Ch.11 : “…if somehow I can inspire those of my flesh, so that I
might save some of them”. Check also Ch.9 of Corinthians I
“To the weak, I became weak in order to gain the weak; I became
everything to everyone, so that I might save some in every way”.
If, therefore, we Orthodox presume that the Holy Mother
is a God because she can “save”, then Paul in the same way must have
considered himself a God, because he also said that he wanted to “save
some”. Didn’t your irreverent tutors point out these verses to
If however you tell me that Paul speaks of a “relative
salvation”, then we too speak of a relative salvation in the Church.
You should therefore apply the same measures here and not judge with
different measures whatever you consider is to your benefit, and
different measures when they are not to your benefit.
When God and Jesus Christ are nowhere in the Bible
addressed as “Most Holy”, only “Holy” – in Peter I:16 we read “for it is
written, become holy, as I am holy”; also in passages Mark 1:24, Peter
A 1:15, Revel. 3:7, 4:8. Why have you elevated the Blessed sister Mary
with this blasphemous title of “Most Holy”, even above the “cause
of everything”, the “Creator of the Universe”, the “Only True God”?
We, my friend, have done nothing more than that which the
Bible itself does! For example, in verses : Exodus Ch.29 verse 37,
Ch.30 verses 28-29 and 34-36, Leviticus Ch.2 verse 3, Ezekiel Ch.48
verse 12, etc., the vessels of the Temple and even the earth itself are
referred to as “All Holy” (superlative degree!!!!). How blasphemous
Moses must have been, to have declared those vessels even holier than
And while God according to the Bible is “benevolent” and
in fact according to the words of our Lord Jesus “no-one is benevolent,
except one: God” (Matth.Ch19 verse 17 and Mark Ch.10 verse 18), Luke
the evangelist blasphemously (in your opinion) addresses Theophilus as
“most excellent” (Luke Ch.1 verse 3), which is a superlative degree of
the word “benevolent”!!! (an equivalent is : good-better-best in
colloquial terms). And while according to Christ’s words we should
never name anyone “benevolent”, Luke dares to describe Theophilus as
“most excellent”, in other words, even more benevolent than
God!!! Not to mention that Paul indulges in the same “blasphemy”, for
a ruler named Festus !! (Acts, Ch.26 verse 25).
Didn’t your blasphemous tutors show you these tracts?
Because, by naming “blasphemous” those Christians who refer to the
Mother of our Lord “Most Holy Mother”, they are saying that the Bible is
also blasphemous, when the Bible does exactly the same thing.
But, you will probably say, “the vessels of the temple
were most holy, when compared to the remaining vessels” and that “Festus
and Theophilus were far more benevolent, compared to other
people”. Well, again judge with the same measure, and realize that we
too address the Holy Mother as “Most Holy”, as compared to other saints,
and not as compared to God! And if you persist in calling the Holy
Mother a goddess, then you should also call Theophilus and Festus “God”
Come to your senses!! Look at the slippery path that the
denial of the truth is leading you to!
(…but the innumerable researches have proved that the one
you worship is not the humble sister Mary, but the “great Mother of the
Gods”, Cybele, who penetrated into pseudo-christianity during the Roman
What you say here proves nothing. This statement of
yours does not comprise evidence. If you want to be reliable, you must
prove this, and not try to create impressions from nonexistent things!
And now, please take the trouble to go to your orthodox
library and take out the “Minor Benedictions” book….. I believe you have
it and you must know about the blasphemous titles it contains.
But don’t you understand that everything that is
mentioned there is expressed in a manner that compares to other people,
and not to God? Do you insist on warping the meanings?
Turn to page 11. Referring to sister Mary, it says : “Rejoice,
atonement-bearer of the World, o virgin.. (p.512)
Wasn’t the Holy Mother the one who gave birth to Christ,
who was the “atonement” of our sins? “and he is the atonement for our
sins; not only for ours, but for the entire world’s” .
So, if Christ is the “atonement” , then isn’t the “womb”
that carried Him, the “atonement-bearer”? (John A Ch.2 verse 2).
Plain logic, and plain grammar! Unless you are denying that Christ is
she who transports everyone who praises her, from
the death into the life ….(p.36)…
Isn’t this the same case as the words of Paul that we
mentioned above, that he wanted to “save” others”? Why then – in your
opinion – the Holy Mother cannot save, whereas Paul can? Because the
transportation from death into life is “salvation”. And who was it that
most served the salvation of mankind? Was it Paul, or the Holy Mother
who gave birth to the Christ? Or do you perhaps hate life and do not
praise it, thus defaming the hymns that honor it?
The ailments of the soul do you heal, and the afflictions
of the body, o virgin…
Man, you don’t understand a thing! You are now saying
that we should accuse the Scriptures, because they also mention how the
apostles healed the sick!! (or didn’t you know that either?) In your
opinion therefore, the apostles were capable of healing, but for the
Holy Mother to heal is blasphemy!!!! My friend, either you are absurd,
Didn’t you happen to read in the scriptures that even the
apostle Paul’s head cloth could heal? (Acts, Ch.19 verses 11-12). Or
have you perhaps resorted to such extreme blasphemy, that you consider
the Holy Mother even more inferior than one of Paul’s garments?
Virgin….everything is possible to you
Similarly: “everything is possible to me, by Christ
who empowers me”. (Philip. Ch.4
WHAT A BLASPHEMER YOU ARE, PAUL! How dare you say such bad things?
Don’t you know Paul, that such expressions are blasphemous and that only
the blasphemous Orthodox use them? Why Paul are you tarnishing the
Holy Bible with words that don’t agree with the Russellites?
And why did you “remove” the remaining words that follow
the above quote : “….for you have gestated Christ the almighty”
? Is it possible you didn’t mention it, in order to warp the meaning?
Wasn’t Christ the cause of this “power” of hers, and not the supposed
“deification” that you accuse us of? Honestly, aren’t you ashamed of
warping the meaning?
Or are you perhaps offended by the word “God-bearer”?
Isn’t it clear in John Ch.1 when, in reference to Christ it mentions: “and
God was the Logos”? And you don’t accept that Mary gave birth to
Let’s see what we have:
Christ = God.
Mary = Mother of Christ.
Therefore Mary = God-bearer !!!
Simple logic, my friend! If you don’t like it, then
write your own Scriptures, according to your own standards!!
And it also doesn’t say that the embryo was not human!
You said that. Christ’s hypostasis was Divine and human, not his
human nature. The embryo Christ was human, BUT it was joined to
Divinity from the very moment of its conception.
“Be merciful to me, the humble one, who is full of every
kind of sin, for apart from you, I know no other refuge; you, the
only hope of Christians… the only beholder… (p.518 Great Horologion)…
Let me remind you of a few simple things that your
prejudice doesn’t allow you to remember:
When the Lord went to the wedding in Canaan and the wine
supply was finished, the Holy Mother said to Him: “The wine has
finished! Do something!” He said to her “what is there between you
and me, woman? My time is not yet come.” So far, so good, right?
Up to this point, this serves your views. But what happened further
Although Christ stated that “His time was not yet come”
and that He had no intention of “doing something”, and even though He
implied that, as God, it was not His will to satisfy His human mother’s
request for some kind of miracle, what did He do?
HE FINALLY OBEYED HER! HE PERFORMED A MIRACLE! HE
TURNED THE WATER INTO WINE, EVEN THOUGH HIS TIME WAS NOT YET COME! EVEN
THOUGH HE HAD MADE THIS VERY CLEAR TO HER!
Are you familiar with many people my friend that have
persuaded God to do something that He didn’t want?
This is why we say about the Holy Mother :
merciful to me, who is full of every kind of sin, for apart from you, I know no other refuge; you, the only
hope of Christians… the only beholder”.
Is there any other holy person that can we turn to, other
than her, who can persuade God to forget our sins? Only she has this
kind of boldness and influence over the King of the universe. Only the
….. sister Mary !
The dead through you are brought to life …
Why didn’t you write the entire text? What are you
afraid of? The hymn-writer explains what he means, directly afterwards.
He writes the following: “… for you have gestated the hypostasis of
life itself..”. Therefore, the reason he writes this, is because
the Holy Mother was gestating the Christ, who is “the resurrection and
In your opinion, didn’t the holy Mother mediate in the
birth of the Lord, who brought life to the dead?
What is the meaning of the words “through you”?
Doesn’t it mean that the Holy Mother was an “instrument” in the hands of
God, for the purpose of incarnating the Christ? Would Christ have been
born, without incarnation? Would the dead therefore have been brought
to life, without the Holy Mother?
Deliver me from the eternal fire and the torments that
await me, o God-Bearer… for you are the salvation of the Christian
This is the same as what was explained previously. Just
as Paul “saved” and thus delivered mankind from the eternal fire,
likewise does the Holy Mother. She is furthermore “the salvation of the
Christian world”, as she is the one who gave flesh to the Christ, who is
their Saviour. As you can see, her function is indirect, and always in
relation to the Christ. She never saves on her own, independently.
Because “everything is possible to her, by Christ who empowers her”,
just as with Paul, who had formulated this statement.
… o source of mercy, refuge for the world, we extensively
cry out to you, Lady Theotokos, to anticipate and to deliver us of any dangers, as
the only speedy protector .
I wonder, is there any other saint, who has such
authority and who is so loved by Christ, as much as His mother? Isn’t
His love so great, that He first attends to her prayers for us? If you
have any such doubts, then perhaps you do not love your own mother.
Excerpt from the “Orthodox Synodic” document, from the 7th
Ecumenical Synod :
“In the manner that the prophets had seen, the apostles had taught, the
Church had received, the teachers had dogmatized, the world had
conceded, Divine Grace shone upon, the truth proven, the falsity driven
away, the wisdom outspoken, and as awarded by Christ, thus we believe,
thus we speak, thus we preach: that Christ is our true God, and that we
honor His saints in words, in writings, in meanings, in sacrifices, in
temples, in images; whilst we offer worship and respect to Christ as
God and Master, the others – who are genuine servants to the common
Master – we honor accordingly, by offering the veneration that is
appropriate to their affiliation.